Do they really Care

[saint-spoon]

This may be emotive, and I hope the other MODs will slap my wrist if it is too political but, local to us the only large wind turbine factory has closed down due to the recession. The government refused to bail them out financially and so the ceased to exist and 600 people lost their jobs. The owners are a Danish company and are pulling out of the UK operation. (Now for the political bit) As well as the failing banks Gordon and his pals in the Houses of parliament (and expense claims) have willingly thrown our tax money at car manufacturers but wouldn’t support green energy; the question being that for a party that likes to ram it’s green credentials down our throats are they really that bothered if it won’t bring in tax revenue after the recession ends? If they were truly concerned about the environment surely not helping out the manufacturers of polluting machines and aiding those who produce clean(er) energy would be the best policy.

[Dave]

more cars =
more car tax
more petrol tax
more insurance vat-tax

my firm is the same
we all need to be more green
they then hire me a car to drive
120 miles to see their ocupational health physio
i could have done a normal nights work and seen him when i got there
instead i have to have two nights off(i still got payed)
hire in two agency workers to cover my shifts
and like i said hire me a car to go in
i could also have gone to a local physio in my own time!!!!

[misty]

Bit dodgy this one. One the one hand I have read that other countries have found wind power not to be as good as it is cracked up to be and not investing in it any more. The manufacturer and installation of wind farms is highly polluting and if they weren't subsidised to such a high degree (tax payers money) I doubt there would be any. There is also the cost of taking them down when they are past their sell by date.

On a polital note, my own personal view is that this Government hates anything blue collar. I would love to know the reason they saved the few select car factories but not the van company. The seem to want everybody to have a certificate in something. If you find reading and writing and especially form filling difficult but are brilliant at making or mending things, tough, you must have a piece of paper.
Look at the people coming into politics now, have any of them had a proper job?

[saint-spoon]

I could rant on for days about red tape and bureaucracy, the lot we’ve got running the show seem obsessed quantifying everything, giving accreditation and producing traceable paper-trails. Presumably it’s all to do with their obsession with being able to claim against the individual if the slightest thing goes wrong; but then again it’s only them looking after their own after all Tone B and his Judge wife are both in the profession as are half the cabinet.

[Mo]

The manufacturer and installation of wind farms is highly polluting There is also the cost of taking them down when they are past their sell by date.

The pollution costs of manufacturing this one has been paid.

What did anyone think about the report on the health effects of living near them and their noise? (Wind farms not the government)

[misty]

Don't they both make a persistant aggrevating noise?

[saint-spoon]

The manufacturer and installation of wind farms is highly polluting There is also the cost of taking them down when they are past their sell by date.

The pollution costs of manufacturing this one has been paid.

What did anyone think about the report on the health effects of living near them and their noise? (Wind farms not the government)

Good point well made MO, my issue here is that they (the government) claim to be investing in greener energy but actually eschew anything to do with it unless it A) would win them the next election or B) has lots of tax revenue inbound. Irrespective of whether wind-power is good or bad, and I have my own views based on the latest information available, the fact is that the government plays a good game of being green but the game is only theoretical and will never be realised at large.

[Stig]

It is a shame for Vestas staff. Vestas are the biggest wind manufacturer in the world & very profitable, they shouldn't need a handout. Like all other manufacturers they're seeking to maximise profit here, not cut a loss.

Misty, I must counter your negative press. Wind power is a proven method of electricity generation, used successfully the world over. It's now a fairly mature technology with good economics. (Different story for offshore wind, at this point in time, where it really is very expensive to build. But this sector too will mature, or fail. Time will tell.)

Taxpayer funding - well, sort of yes & sort of no! Renewable energy earns a premium from the Renewables Obligation, but it does not receive any handouts directly from the treasury. The RO is paid for by everyone who uses electricity. If you don't use any leccy, you don't pay any subsidy. Also the RO is "revenue neutral" - in other words it's collected from suppliers & distributed entirely to renewable generators. Govt coffers don't get any of it.

Noise - wind farms aren't silent. However they compare very well against coal, nuclear or CCGT stations. Even hydro is far noisier.

Wind's bad press has been stirred up by people who want to protect the countryside. It's perfectly understandable. But there's still a requirement for power that has grown bigger every year since electricity was invented!

What should we build then? Coal (strip mining, sulphur dioxide, acid rain, ash to get rid of. Mainly imported from places like China because we've lost the taste for mining in UK). Oil & gas (finite resources bought from unstable russia & middle east), marine tidal & PV (viable - but THE most expensive sources of power in the world at the moment).

Nuclear - using the most poisonous substances known to man to generate for 20 years & leave a waste problem that won't go away for 1000 years. If anyone tells you nuclear power is economic, ask them about NDA's predicted cost to clean up the UK's old nuke stations. It's around £74bn - entirely paid for by the taxpayer by the way. Also, no nuclear station has ever been built on time or to budget. Here is an article about the 2 plants currently being built in europe:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... ising-cost

Apologies for the long rant, and hope I'm not bordering on the political. Feelings run very strong on this issue and in no way do i mean to offend anybody.

[lancashire lass]

good post Stig - I'm in total agreement with you.

[saint-spoon]

A very good point Stig and obviously well researched. The thread was unfortunately on whether or not the government actually moves to back up it’s claims to green credentials or if it merely plays lips service (and lots f spin) so as to win votes. Regardless of whether or not the factory is closing as an exercise in cost cutting or maximising profits the fact remains that 600 people are losing their jobs and we will no longer boast a large wind turbine factory in our country with little or no intervention from our beloved leader. Would it have been different if the Isle of Wight voted predominantly Labour rather than Tory or if there was a lot of tax revenue to be made from wind turbines?
To my mind, and I may be wrong again but, it seem that the top three talk the talk when it comes to green issues and promise the world but when it comes down to walking the walk it’s all excuses and more empty promises.

[lancashire lass]

To my mind, and I may be wrong again but, it seem that the top three talk the talk when it comes to green issues and promise the world but when it comes down to walking the walk it’s all excuses and more empty promises.

I've been disillusioned with politics since my teens, and the recent expenses scandal has only confirmed my suspicions that it's all about getting power and lining their own pocket (with various spin offs using their position - something I've witnessed too often in other places) In the late 1980s I remember the European elections getting a lot more Green Party votes than ever before and suddenly all 3 parties put "green issues" in their manifesto but like everything else, once in, they never follow it through.

[Sunny B]

Great post Stig.

I think it is appalling that the government are throwing all that money at the car industry and bringing in the dreadful scrappage payment. They should be directing all that money at improving public transport.

Windfarms may be noisy, I don't know, but I would guess they don't sound any louder than a main road, and I know which I would prefer to live next to.

[mal]

What should we build then? Coal (strip mining, sulphur dioxide, acid rain, ash to get rid of. Mainly imported from places like China because we've lost the taste for mining in UK).

Can I just say that the country did not "lose it's taste for mining." A government of a different persuasion to the one we have now saw fit to destroy our mining industry for its own ends. For those who don't remember, the miners strike was not about wages, but the continued extraction of a valuable strategic resource, ie coal. This was before the days when coal power was non-PC. The miners argument was that if the mines were kept open, we would have garuanteed energy resources for the next 100-150 years. However, if the mines were closed because they were uneconomical, those reserves would be lost permanently as they could not be reopened once they became economical again. Presumably this happened because someone would make a better profit out of importing low grade, "dirty" Eastern European coal than producing it at home. This has left us at the mercy of the foreign owned energy companies or even countries pipelines happen to pass through. Can I reiterate that this is not "losing our taste for mining" but being sabotaged by our own beloved Fuhrer for the sake of her own hatred of the unions! Heil Hilda!
As for the scrappage scheme, it's ridiculous. Surely, by paying to have cars scrapped against new ones, we're not helping our workers, but those of Germany, France, Italy etc. who still HAVE motor industries.
On to wind farms. I live in a small village between Scunthorpe and Doncaster. We live 100 yds from the Grimsby-Liverpool railway (noisy.) We live 1 mile from the M180 (noisy.) We are under the flightpaths of Humberide, Robin Hood, Leeds Bradford and Manchester airports (noisy) in the holding circle for Robin Hood with planes going over so low you can almost ask the passengers how the flight was and we have RAF top gun jobbies flying on full afterburn going over too. It's been decided that as if we don't have enough noise, or perhaps because we won't notice the extra, that we are also to have a wind farm. This will mean 400ft. Yes, 400ft towers practically in our back gardens. The plans are for everything to come through our village with it's Edwardian road and drains. We're talking thousands of heavy loads. So far, we've managed to fight it off on grounds of the disruption to the village, but that will only hold until someone gets the right incentive.
Wind power is great, If they want to give us all a small wind turbine, fine. Our local Tess and Coe have three beautiful sculptural ones that are practically silent and are turning a far greater proportion of the time than the conventional ones up on the top of the Lincs. Edge despite being in the wind shadow of the escarpment!
In answer to the question. No they don't care. I don't believe any government of any persuasion cares, but don't use the "taste" of the ordinary people as an excuse to justify the actions of self seeking politicians!

[SHewson]

I agree with Mal. I don't think any government cares about the people. They only seem to be bothered about appeasing Europe and do gooders.

I don't smoke but they spent millions on anti smoking campaignn which meant that reduced the amount of people smoking which cut the tax revenue down (If people want to smoke let them).

They banned smokers from pubs, bingo halls etc. Hence less people going out so less tax on drinks food etc and lo and behold closure of pubs and more unemployed.

I know if I was going to a pub there would be smokers and it would be my choice.

These politicians just do not think about the consequences of their actions. They are a bunch of idiots !!!

Simon

[wendy]

You never see a poor politician
Wendy