volcano. goes to show.

[Sunny B]

And I don't blame Ilona for flying to the Scillies - I have been on the ferry twice and been so seasick I wanted to throw myself overboard. It's a very flat bottomed boat, and it affects a lot of people who would not normally be seasick (like me) very badly.

[manda]

I was cross while watching the local news tonight, businesses bleating that there shouldn't have been a ban and the local economy has lost money. They would rather have risked sending thousands of people up in planes that might fall from the sky, I think that's terrible.

I agree Sunny.....there would have been a hue and cry if planes and been allowed to go up into the sky and then there was a major disaster.... but.. that being said I can understand for those who get wrapped up in the immediate effect it has on the personally.
There are those who will have spent years of hard work and finances, building up exportation businesses and can currently do nothing but watch it fall apart or be put under huge pressure. Never mind the obligation they will feel towards anyone they employ....the ripple effect is huge.
There are business in New Zealand that on the back of this have been able to get into supplying Asian markets that were previously being supplied from Europe...great for them but their gain is someone else's loss.

Paramount is safety but the effects of this have been more catastrophic than any terrorist could inflict...Mother Nature will have the last say in all things...we are just guests making the most of the moment.

[p.penn]

Yes I will take a little flight, and I hope somebody up there will forgive me for it.

I hardly think that in the way of the world, taking a flight is something to be forgiven Ilona! If this facility is available to us, I think we should enjoy it.

Flying is a 'right' in the same way as sailing round the world on a transatlantic yacht is, in that anyone can do it if they can afford to do so.

I think that is a very extreme example Stig. How about, more realistically, flying and driving a car? Or owning a computer? Or a tv? Or a radio?

Issues surrounding absolute and relative poverty apply to this debate too.

[Stig]

Quote:
I think that is a very extreme example Stig. How about, more realistically, flying and driving a car? Or owning a computer? Or a tv? Or a radio?
Unquote.

All privelidges that MOST people on the planet still can only aspire to. It's why I used the extreme example - something WE might still aspire to.

I've not expressed my thoughts very well. I have no problem with people flying if they want to. Nor do I dispute that it is within the means of most folk in the developed world to get on a plane from time to time. It's down to personal choice, and so we're very lucky aren't we?

An aside, my German teacher yesterday said she had never thought of Iceland as a superpower before, but they were instrumental in the collapse of the financial system and now they're bringing aviation to it's knees! Who'd have thought it?

[foghornleghorn2]

Planes not flying is an inconvenience, getting stuck abroad is an inconveniece, no more than that really. Nobody has died (AFAIK)

The media love to whip up a disaster story, everyone will get home eventually.

As for the right to fly, air travel is very affordable now in the same way that cars are affordable now. When the motor car first came out it was a rich mans toy.

[Totally Scrambled]

Gord looked and saw that Iceland had refused to return all the money England's Council's had put in their banks.
And Gord was angry as he considered this money his.
Gord said "Let fire and brimstone rain upon the Icelanders as fit punishment" and there was fire and brimstone
And Gord saw that it was good.
The ash it did descend upon England and stopped the planes which stopped the taxes on fuel, holiday insurance and so on flowing to Gord's House
And Gord saw that this was bad.
Gords people were scattered to the four winds and could not return home.
The people were angry and blamed Gord for their woes
Wailing " Gord, Gord. Why have you forsaken us"
And Gord saw that this was bad.
He despatched his ships to gather his people unto him, which cost many Pounds
And he saw this was very bad.
From the Book Of Reckoning Chapter 13 Verse 10

[Mo]

I’ve been away from my computer for a couple of days and now I find what I’ve started.
I apologies if anyone felt ‘got at’ or judged. My

I can now almost hear myself saying "if nature intended us to fly we would have wings".

was a frivolous quote from the ‘grumpy old woman’ I sometimes feel I could become.

Richard, thanks for reminding us to read your blog, it was a good article. I couldn’t find any comments, or any opportunity to comment, on your log-making, though.

Yes I will take a little flight, and I hope somebody up there will forgive me for it.

I hardly think that in the way of the world, taking a flight is something to be forgiven Ilona! If this facility is available to us, I think we should enjoy it.

I think we should weigh the costs of our actions for others, and for the environment, and not just “enjoy it if it’s available”. So maybe Ilona feels about flying the same as I do about my driving. A bit guilty, but still going ahead in moderation, and with the thought that other people use more.

My views on flying are still that it uses more resources and is taxed less than other forms of transport, and I personally would not think it right to fly regularly for pleasure. I might just occasionally, although I actually only have once.

Living a green and ethical life involves many complicated judgements and compromises. That’s what this section of the forum is about, I assume.

[Richard]

Thanks Mo,

Richard

[manda]

This is off topic from the Volcano thread but.....

I think we should weigh the costs of our actions for others, and for the environment, and not just “enjoy it if it’s available”. So maybe Ilona feels about flying the same as I do about my driving. A bit guilty, but still going ahead in moderation, and with the thought that other people use more.

I wonder how many of the people who are stranded in other countries could just maybe having their once a year or once in a lifetime holiday?

One person travelling on their once a year holiday is not seen as having a huge impact on the environment but when multiplied by millions travelling on their once a year holiday - well........

The issue with all things we do as individuals, is that in isolation we try to make decisions that minimise our effect on the planet (except for the twit who put the abusive comment on your You Tube Richard and others like him!)...still when multiplied by millions the effect is not minimal just less than it would have been had we not put some thought into it.

[foghornleghorn2]

Air travel is here to stay, it is up to each individual to wrestle with their own conscience about how far they fly and how often.

My OH flys a lot, she does so for business, although with modern facilities such as video conferencing some travel can be eliminated. I often have the chance to tag along, sometimes with my ticket paid for if I give up my baggage allowance for her company to use for exhibition stands/brochures etc. I have been to some fantastic parts of the world and will not be giving this perk up until I have to. Sorry if thats not very green but it is a bit frugal

[Mo]

And now they are flying again.
The scale of this has concentrated the minds of the research people and it seems that they've been flying empty aircraft around to see what happens. So now they've changed the limit on ash permitted from zero to some low level.

I don't think it will mean that everyone can expect to get to and from their holidays as normal. It will take ages to sort out the chaos.
Also there will be extra mainainance checks for planes that have gone through the ash so schedules could be disrupted.
Not to mention the uncertainty of never knowing until take-off time whether there will be too much ash between your destination and take-off airport.
Airtraffic control will be frantically busy juggling slots if planes want to be re-routed.

I was cross while watching the local news tonight, businesses bleating that there shouldn't have been a ban and the local economy has lost money. They would rather have risked sending thousands of people up in planes that might fall from the sky, I think that's terrible.

I agree Sunny.....there would have been a hue and cry if planes and been allowed to go up into the sky and then there was a major disaster.... .

I wonder if anyone has done the sums on the risk invovled in all those fleets of buses travelling on crowded roads to bring people home. Probably not, the political hoo-ha from a plane crash would be huge, several road crashes would not rate more than the local news. Plenty of people are killed on the roads every day, but we still drive.
People are statistically illiterate when it comes to assessing risk.

And of course the Opposition is playing on this. If new research has decided that, with extra measurements of ash concentrations and extra maintainance check, it is safe to fly then lets blame Gordon Brown for not insisting on the authorities allowing flights sooner.

[silverbass]

A bit late reading this and commenting I know but....
I agree with Sunny that it was better to ground planes than risk life. I also felt sorry for the people who were stuck away from their loved ones and could not get home.

2 things stuck in my mind from this episode.
A friend of mine is married to a sailor who serves on board one of the ships that brought stranded people home. This ship was also bringing home wounded soildiers from Afganistan.
Apparently the tourists were all moaning about not being brought home sooner and wounded soildiers were pushed out of the way as they stormed onto the ship. Some of them had choosen not to take alternate transport home due to cost.
All the sailors gave up their bunks to the tourists and they and the wounded soildiers slept on the floor. This measure astonishingly did not stop the moaning and complaining.

On a lighter note the second thing that stuck in my mind was the clip on Have I Got News For You that showed a guy at the airport shouting at the camera "I hate Iceland".