new normal '

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Mo
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Re: new normal '

Post by Mo »

Bob, although the 'war to end wars' was over 100 years ago there has never been a time since that the planet has been free from it. In this country we have been spared most of them except WW2, but our troops have been involved in some, and we've seen the results of others in refugees and asylum seekers.

I've lived at a time when economics was in my favour. Good employment for graduates, salaries such that we could raise a family on my husbands earnings, a good pension scheme. Even inflation, though it made saving pointless also ate up the mortgage as house prices rose. But, though the young people blame our generation, we were brought up with austerity, did without things they now take for granted.
As a result of a childhood where we had little money I've always been frugal. So i'm in a good position now with savings and pension. But I think that this will be eaten into as a result of the pandemic. Already seeing savings interest dropping to well below inflation.
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bikesandbirdsbob
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Re: new normal '

Post by bikesandbirdsbob »

Hi , that is true to a lot of people .
May be we are all in for a rough ride .
dare I ask about the un employed going to happen very soon and what the view of some boat people travelling across the channel taking jobs .
Whether they do or not it will be in there minds .
I believe in charity at home first and then care for others .
On a note my house was flooded in the storm and international agency dropped food parcel to my door .
Nor did the fire brigade ….
(Ha Ha )
Bob
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Mo
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Re: new normal '

Post by Mo »

bikesandbirdsbob wrote:...taking jobs .
Whether they do or not it will be in there minds .

Bob

It will be in people's mind because some papers put it there and stir up hatred.

Not sure what is the answer to refugees, but the other lie about them is they take houses. Well, maybe they do need somewhere to live, but at least they are not buying up london property as an investment then leaving it empty like some Russian & Chinese millionaires do. If we have planning laws limiting building (as we need) we should be able to ensure that what housing there is goes to those who need it.
The older I get the more left wing I get (though I wouldn't like to see it carried to extremes)
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KarenE
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Re: new normal '

Post by KarenE »

Agree with you completely Mo. It's classic divide and conquer, stirring up hatred to other groups in order to deflect and disguise from what is really going on, and that is the continued transfer of wealth and assets into the hands of the already excessively rich. We don't need new planning laws, we just need land owners to stop sitting on land whilst the asset price of it rises. And frankly half of the commercial premises - especially office space - we currently have will go unused soon, if more people work from home (and there's no reason not to) so that could be turned into houses and flats, and definitely no more dirty money buying them up as an asset to sit empty while communities drain away.

As for refugees and people desperate enough to risk their and their families lives crossing the channel and other dangerous places, we better get some perspective on it because it is only going to get worse when climate change, famine and war really start to bite - and they will. And we would do the same if we were in their shoes.
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Mo
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Re: new normal '

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KarenE wrote:As for refugees and people desperate enough to risk their and their families lives crossing the channel and other dangerous places, we better get some perspective on it because it is only going to get worse when climate change, famine and war really start to bite - and they will. And we would do the same if we were in their shoes.

Yes indeed. Unless we can be part of the solution we will have to share the consequences.
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Meanqueen
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Re: new normal '

Post by Meanqueen »

The thing about refugees, if you want to call them that, is they might have been fleeing conflict in their own countries, but they have passed through several safe countries in order to land on our shores, because they know they will get everything given to them. Why didn't they seek asylum sooner, go through the proper channels, complete their paperwork, and then move on later once they have been accepted. How come they have the money to pay a few thousand quid to traffickers.

Up to date 5000 have come across this year, and that's only the ones they know about. These are economic migrants entering the UK illegally looking for a better life. If we are not happy with where we live, can we then travel to another country and say I quite like it here, I think I will stay. No, I don't thinks so. My friend emigrated with his family to Australia, it took them two years to go through the correct proceedings, get the right paperwork, before they were allowed to enter.

If they are planning to let any more come across, they need vetting. There are no jobs for them. They are already filling up the hotels, where next? Serco has a contract with the government to do this work, they must be making mega bucks out of it. Is this the new normal?

ilona
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Mo
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Re: new normal '

Post by Mo »

Not sure what the answer is. WW2 gave rise to a huge refugee problem which still hadn't been solved when I was at secondary school. I remember World Refugee Year.
No-one wants their own standard of living affected by them, but the world is interlinked.
And part of the reason for our good standard of living is our Imperial past, we took whatever we wanted from those countries and left them in poverty.
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bikesandbirdsbob
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Re: new normal '

Post by bikesandbirdsbob »

Hi , this is again interesting views .
What should be done to people that sneak into the country and bring COV19 in .
I wonder if they break the laws of our land , they would really care about any rules / laws (10 days lockdown ) at any time .
The new normal I see as a lot of people doing lots of different things with lots of different views .

1 lot having to go out of a house to venture into danger (work ) as no option .
2 lot staying at home watching those going out into danger (working from home ) with a view that I am all right .

Then the shopping malls not working , more people not working at home or going out going to work .
More offices turned to housing so that the people in the ex working spaces can then be at home and work .

I can imagine me working , sleeping eating and watching tele at my work place and not having to pay a mortgage and rent .
Wander what a partner (wife ) kids would think about that .

More house would effect the rich commercial renting
What ever happens to the rich end of the wealth , the poor at the bottom will feel it 10 times worse .

I think that when the next generation get a lot older , they will be saying I remember the days that ….. to another generation will say what are you on about .

I also believe that there is NO NEW NORMAL or a NORMAL full stop . Just people getting on with their lives and those that depend on them as best they can do.

Survival will bring people to do things they would not have previously have done leading them to actions seen by others as un acceptable .

I am pondering on this all and in a few years I will look back and see that I was mad and COV19 crazy .
Bob
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Mo
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Re: new normal '

Post by Mo »

bikesandbirdsbob wrote:Hi , this is again interesting views .
What should be done to people that sneak into the country and bring COV19 in .
I wonder if they break the laws of our land , they would really care about any rules / laws (10 days lockdown ) at any time .
The new normal I see as a lot of people doing lots of different things with lots of different views .
I needed to shop earlier than usual yesterday to post a 'tracked letter' in time for the post. 3 kids without masks charging round co-op bumping into people and queueing close behind me.
Even when I shop at 9pm it seems to be teenagers who don't wear masks.
Lots of different views is right, I hear them called 'muzzles'.


bikesandbirdsbob wrote:1 lot having to go out of a house to venture into danger (work ) as no option .
2 lot staying at home watching those going out into danger (working from home ) with a view that I am all right .


I also believe that there is NO NEW NORMAL or a NORMAL full stop . Just people getting on with their lives and those that depend on them as best they can do.


Bob
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GalebG4M
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Re: new normal '

Post by GalebG4M »

Well, one of the big reasons behind the refugee crisis is the terribly drawn borders British and French officials drew in the Middle East, and later on, American endless interventions... Sure, Middle Eastern/North African countries aren't innocent, white and fluffy little rabbits either, but no matter how we look at it, they'd be better off without external interference at all times.
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Re: new normal '

Post by bikesandbirdsbob »

Well my view is history is history .
I look to today /tomorrow.
Brought up with Charity begins at home and I see the future as very much looking after our selves first .
we as a country are in trouble and dark times for many are ahead .
Ever one tells us we are not a important political and influential country .
Hitting above our weight is not possible in these times .
Message should be sent that our paths are no longer around .
Well the normal (new ) is about to change I think to the recent old style of lockdown .
Govnmt. is trying to get us back to work but for how long .
May as well stay home and keep working .
Also staying at home with tech. and phone calls can be done in any part of the country or dare I say the world .
So risks to both .
At home you do not know till your cut off the computer that you are not working anymore .
sad times I feel are round the corner and a lot of people that saw the miners etc etc go to the wall may see it heading towards them and have the same attitude from others .
Bob
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Re: new normal '

Post by KarenE »

This is a really interesting thread!

I don't believe that history is history - the past shapes the present and we
feel its effects far into the future. Also I believe the past offers us lessons if we would only learn them (but as humans we will continue to make mistakes anyway!) Definitely we are feeling the shudders of long-ago history - black lives matter, colonialism and post imperialism, not to mention the never-ending references to WW2, as well as very recent history - Thatcherism to austerity. The carving up of countries after WW1 is still having repercussions to this day in the Middle east. The USA's hawk like interference in other countries' politics since the 50's has created huge amounts of insability, especially their ridiculous war on terror.

I agree Bob, dark times are here and darker times are likely coming. I really do worry when i see the rise of movements around the world which seem to be predicated on hatred, anger and oppression. I don't trust those in power in the UK or the USA, and many other countries. And the thought of going back to 80s style unemployment levels - which frankly the North has never got over - terrifies me as I was a teenager living through all that. There's a heck of a lot of people about to get a very rude awakenessing when they come to sign on for the first time because for most people, a life on the dole is not easy by any means (in spite of what rags like the Mail and S** might tell them)

The really sad thing, going to your point about influence Bob, is that we were an influential and powerful country. We have punched above our weight for a long time, but we seem to be throwing all that away now and I'm not sure what for.

I think for me it's not so much look after yourself first, but more we must look ourselves and after each other first, because god knows our blooming governments don't seem to be able or willing to!
Karen
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Mo
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Re: new normal '

Post by Mo »

Very true Karen.
We may not personally have been responsible for past wrongs but as a country we have gained from them. Some more than others, our ancestors may well have been treated almost as badly as the natives of colonies.
So as a country we should play our part, though I'm not sure how.

I grew up at a time when the State provided a safety net. But austerity has eaten that away for many people. Just been reading an interview with an author, at the back of a book written in 2010. Talking about the difference between writing a novel set in the past and present. Same basement flat, the woman who lived there in the past might starve or die without medical treatment., couldn't happen now. But after 10 years of cuts and health charges for immigrants that safety net has holes in.
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Re: new normal '

Post by bikesandbirdsbob »

Hi , Well I think we all should look after each other. These times I think a lot of people will need help .
The real problem will lie in the people that have some pride left and or brought up to look after themselves , as they wil not willing ask for help or seek it .
You cannot expect the govnmt to be a bottomless pit of hand out cash.
Also some day it will have to be paid for .
No doubt the pensioners that have saved and have been kind of looked after will have to cough up as well .
Like Brazil the money trees of the world are being felled .
We will need to really look after our selves for a long while and again not expect others (E U ) (Commonwealth ) to rush to our aid .
Should natural disasters happen we should assist as much as possible , but self inflicted harm should be left to those involved . Every time we try and help we get no thanks and blamed for it all .
A lot of people I talk to keep saying ALL LIVES MATTER , not one particular ones.
Punishment should fit the crime by law .
Change the law ..
I believe we as a nation no what HUMAN RIGHTS are and try and live to them , No body should tell us .
Lots of things used to happen and I believe we should supply goods not MONEY to help in aid .
Also we should make what we supply .
We then would get benefits out of it as well .
I hope you all keep well first , swim and or at least tread water in the trouble sea we live in .
look after yourselves first then you can look after some one else in need.
Bob
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Re: new normal '

Post by lancashire lass »

KarenE wrote:And frankly half of the commercial premises - especially office space - we currently have will go unused soon, if more people work from home (and there's no reason not to) so that could be turned into houses and flats, and definitely no more dirty money buying them up as an asset to sit empty while communities drain away.


I was only thinking about the idea of why don't they turn empty office space into housing after listening to the government's push to get office staff back to work to save the other businesses in the inner cities. That should "kill" 2 birds with one stone - provide much needed housing (not just those seeking homes but for those who are about to lose their homes as a result of rising unemployment, refugees and the homeless as well) and that should also save those local inner city businesses currently being affected by the the absence of office workers. It's not just the current effects of the pandemic but with climate change, we need to make changes to reduce emissions (especially travelling) so home working and online shopping will be the way to go and should be encouraged wherever possible. When I was younger, travelling to work (whether by bus or car) was a way of life and didn't bother me but as I got older and roads got busier, I seem to spend more time on the journey which have impacted my health and well-being (from the fumes especially when in long traffic queues and sitting cramped in the car seat for long periods as well as the daily stress of being caught in heavy traffic / watching out for stupid and selfish drivers and constant clock watching)

Meanqueen wrote:The thing about refugees, if you want to call them that, is they might have been fleeing conflict in their own countries, but they have passed through several safe countries in order to land on our shores, because they know they will get everything given to them. Why didn't they seek asylum sooner, go through the proper channels, complete their paperwork, and then move on later once they have been accepted. How come they have the money to pay a few thousand quid to traffickers.


These are economic migrants entering the UK illegally looking for a better life. If we are not happy with where we live, can we then travel to another country and say I quite like it here, I think I will stay. No, I don't thinks so.


First, historically we DID just emigrate to other countries and usually for economic reasons. From the late 1950s to mid 1960s, my parents felt the same and they were not alone - post WW2, there was a lot of financial hardship and low income working families in industrial towns were hit hardest (I'm only going off personal experience so it's possible it was a nationwide thing) Apparently there was plenty of work but wages were low (my dad used to tell me that if he got fed up with one job usually because of the poor pay, he could hand in his notice and walk into another job almost on the same day but whatever he earned was then heavily taxed so wasn't financially better off for it) So my parents looked at emigration - first New Zealand but the doors shut on that, so they looked at Australia but then the job for South Africa came up and that's why we moved there.

So I can understand why we are getting an influx of migrants as the UK like many Western countries, is seen as rich (roads paved with gold image) The legal process only allows those with certain skills in to the country, and sometimes (which I find odd as surely this prevents UK citizens from getting those more highly paid jobs) they will need to earn £X before being considered. So everyone else attempt to enter illegally. As for money to pay traffickers, it's probably all that they own (and possibly given by family members back home to help them to ensure they got a better life and can then send them money back to ease their financial situation) Someone who will risk their life to reach their goal is one of desperation not greed. The UK is probably seen as more tolerant of refugees and people of different race (despite what we see on the news) than most European countries which seem to have more radical politics (who are also keen for refugees to "move on" rather than encourage them to say)

bikesandbirdsbob wrote:You cannot expect the govnmt to be a bottomless pit of hand out cash.


When the lock down was announced back in March, I was stunned by all the financial packages plus total closure of the country and my first thought was, "who is going to pay for all this?" After the 2008 credit crisis and all the austerity measures, plus Brexit, why wasn't this money made available before the pandemic". And as time went on and various businesses started pushing out the begging bowls, the government responded with incentives to encourage people to spend (such as the Eat Out recently finished) And worse, the pandemic is far from gone and most likely be with us for some time yet so it's not over yet and more to come. This will no doubt come back with higher taxation for those lucky to still be in work and hit those about to retire (another excuse to keep people working until they drop because there will be no money left for pensions)

bikesandbirdsbob wrote:Should natural disasters happen we should assist as much as possible , but self inflicted harm should be left to those involved


Unfortunately the "self-inflicted" tend to be through the policies of dictators / corruption of leading political parties in power or due to economics and ignorance of the long term effect (for example, turning rainforests into cash crops that the west are quite happy to buy for pennies) so the vast majority of people tend to be the ones who suffer the most. When they rise up and challenge, they are called "terrorists" and then before you know, outside influence enter the equation and provide weapons that lead to outright war. And in every war, there are those who take advantage of the situation for their own gain. Leaving millions of starving people because of wars (probably not of their own doing), to just get on with dying because of conflict is unacceptable that very few people could ignore.

bikesandbirdsbob wrote:A lot of people I talk to keep saying ALL LIVES MATTER , not one particular ones.
Punishment should fit the crime by law .
Change the law


Change will only come about once a flaw has been raised and brought to the attention of everyone to act on it. Unfortunately as a topic on DTL, politics can be quite divisive and usually not encouraged as I would have a lot more to say on the subject. Suffice to say it is easy to not see the problems of others when we live in our own bubble of friends and associations so when something crashes into it and rips it apart, it creates strong feelings.
Last edited by lancashire lass on 03 Sep 2020, 09:59, edited 2 times in total.

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