Which camp are you in?

Discussion on living for a better and more responsible future
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Raven
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by Raven »

I'm in the 'does it really matter' camp, as to me the effects of overpopulation and disposable culture are things that cause suffering and harm to much more than our carbon cycle. Whatever the effect on the environment it is something that needs addressing.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by Totally Scrambled »

BodhisatvaJohn wrote: Remember, this is the paper who supported Oswald Mosley and the fascist appeasers before the war.

There was a general policy across Europe that favoured appeasment/diplomacy rather than "threats" after WW1. Might have worked in some cases but not in the case of Nazi Germany. Most British people backed Chamberlain's approach and it was only with hindsight that the policy was seen to be unsuitable.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by Totally Scrambled »

BodhisatvaJohn wrote:I can assure you that scientists will never, knowingly publish and findings they do not know to be proven.

But sometimes their theories are shown to be erroneous by subsequent reasearch/evidence. If you are a lay person and have no way of gathering empirical evidence yourself or have the ability/knowledge to analyse it independently, you can only go by either a gut feeling for what is right or believe what you are told by experts. As most peoples' knowledge, without searching far & wide, comes from the media then their view will be skewed by any bias the media puts on a subject.
Look at Galeleo. He said the planets went round the Sun. The Church said it didn't and had experts saying their view was correct. He was forced to deny his earlier evidence despite the fact that he was correct and later scientists backed up his research. In that case the Church was the power in the land and had a vested interest in being correct. Could today's Governments be in a similar position.
I'm not saying global warming is tosh, but most people have to make a decision about it based on trust. Trust that the evidence is correct. Trust that there is no bias in the way the evidence is presented and trust that Governments are handling it to the best of their ability without any hidden agenda.
Like Helen I'm not having a go at you or your beliefs, John, just trying to point out some of the difficulties for the average person trying to come to grips with it.
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roddelmae
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by roddelmae »

Thank you, John, for bringing the Guardian article to my attention.
However, all I can see is each newspaper reporting the same thing from two totally opposing perspectives.
It does not help me decide which is more valid or which one is the one I choose to beleive.
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manda
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by manda »

I have been interested to read what others tink about this.
Do you know what I think there are so many things that are true in so many of these posts....

I'm not sure I fit into either camp to be honest. My personal stance is that the planet will go through whatever phases it is to go through regardless of our presence or not...However...we are doing nothing, as a species, to assist with the health of the planet.

David Attenborough is down at Scott base or was a couple of days ago - I don't know if he's gone now. Anyway, he was doing an interview and he said since he started doing his documentaries the population of our little old planet had tripled....TRIPLED! To me it would seem obvious that (even setting aside the issues re emissions etc) for a species to have gown in population to that degree it has to have a catastrophic effect on the environment.

I kind of surf the net and pick from all sorts of places. I have to say I don't read papers to be honest - I think they all have an agenda going on somewhere (usually to do with the share holders / political stance >bla< ). Having witnessed first hand total untruth that was printed (on more than one occasion), I tend not to believe much from any one source to be honest...feel a bit sad about that really but there you have it.

Thought people might be interested in these sites.

http://www.chasingglaciers.com/features.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.climatechangefacts.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ipcc.ch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - this body assess all the scientific literature available re climate change. They don't have a remit however to make recommendations on what to do with that data... :?
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manda
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by manda »

I have thought about the scientists thing (I am not one by the way)....I would like to think ( as with all things) that people are honest...however I have developed a cynicism over the course of the years which has forced me to acknowledge that not everyone is honest and above board in their dealings.

I hate to say that the cynic in me feels that the scientists are just as open to corruption as the rest of us mere mortals on the planet - it is unfortunate because they have given the sceptics that lovely big loophole from which they can shout ....and have made it so difficult for the non-scientists to sort out what is credible and what isn't. Who is paying their wages and how much difference does it make to findings if one is easily swayed by any agenda that their sponsors may have?.....Oh grief I feel horrid that I think like that but I do....I'm always willing to be dissuaded :?

Again as with so many things I take from many different areas and then try to establish what the consensus is, coupled with what I experience as a human.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by BodhisatvaJohn »

Totally Scrambled wrote:
BodhisatvaJohn wrote:I can assure you that scientists will never, knowingly publish and findings they do not know to be proven.

But sometimes their theories are shown to be erroneous by subsequent reasearch/evidence. If you are a lay person and have no way of gathering empirical evidence yourself or have the ability/knowledge to analyse it independently, you can only go by either a gut feeling for what is right or believe what you are told by experts. As most peoples' knowledge, without searching far & wide, comes from the media then their view will be skewed by any bias the media puts on a subject.
Look at . He said the planets went round the Sun. The Church said it didn't and had experts saying their view was correct. He was forced to deny his earlier evidence despite the fact that he was correct and later scientists backed up his research. In that case the Church was the power in the land and had a vested interest in being correct. Could today's Governments be in a similar position.
I'm not saying global warming is tosh, but most people have to make a decision about it based on trust. Trust that the evidence is correct. Trust that there is no bias in the way the evidence is presented and trust that Governments are handling it to the best of their ability without any hidden agenda.


Lol, Galeleo had to recant or he would have suffered the full fate of those who crossed the Catholic Church at the time, i.e The Spanish Inquisition. ''Oh no, not the Spanish Inquistion!''
Last edited by BodhisatvaJohn on 20 Jan 2010, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by BodhisatvaJohn »

The recent admission that That a false statement appeared in the fourth report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), Does absolutely nothing to change the central argument, that global warming is caused by man made GGE's As someone remarked on another forum, any one who has ever written more than a shopping list, will know how diddifult it is to cheekc over every single item. I wrote long article for publicatgion myself, so am aware just has hard it can be not to get anything wrong. This all episode doesn't show that the scientists are involved in some conspiracy to con the publish into believing that climate change is not happening, but just show that must more care and rigour is needed before inserting such important data in such a massively referred to report

I dojnt want to bore you with more and more info, but, if anyone interrsted this site is a great place to check out the fats on every aspect of CW, in easy to digest chunks. http://www.skepticalscience.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope all is well on here, Be good to talk more with you Helen too.

Love john

Oh by the way, I do try to ditch all believes and opinions in the nearest rubbish bind whenever possible. Opinions and belifes keep us trapped in tghe realm of becoming xx
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Sunny B
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by Sunny B »

Raven wrote:I'm in the 'does it really matter' camp, as to me the effects of overpopulation and disposable culture are things that cause suffering and harm to much more than our carbon cycle. Whatever the effect on the environment it is something that needs addressing.


Exactly.

Unfortunately the leaders of the country have "growth" and "the economy" as their priorities. So I expect that is why they want us to throw away perfectly usable cars and buy new "green" ones, despite the emissions and waste caused by their production, and so on. And if they want us to reduce energy usage why bring in digital which uses many times more power? The more you look, the more inconsistensies you will see.
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lancashire lass
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by lancashire lass »

Sunny B wrote:
Raven wrote:I'm in the 'does it really matter' camp, as to me the effects of overpopulation and disposable culture are things that cause suffering and harm to much more than our carbon cycle. Whatever the effect on the environment it is something that needs addressing.


Exactly.

Unfortunately the leaders of the country have "growth" and "the economy" as their priorities. So I expect that is why they want us to throw away perfectly usable cars and buy new "green" ones, despite the emissions and waste caused by their production, and so on. And if they want us to reduce energy usage why bring in digital which uses many times more power? The more you look, the more inconsistensies you will see.


both valid points.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by saltydog »

Good afternoon. My first time here so I raise my hat.

But, I am in the "Man is harming the planet" camp. The eveidence is in from all over the world, from hundreds of scientists. I know there are a few who have egged the pudding, maybe even distorted some of the data, but there is too much on the other side to be able to deny the issue. And think of whatever trade or profession you are in - you know of one or two who spoil your good reputation!

My son is a research scientist (biology) and he has told me that the scientific argument is not about whether Mankind has caused (or enhanced) the problem but whether we have enough time left to do anything about it. He states, it could be we are in the process of compliance to Darwin in that we have failed the evolutionary test and are not fit to survive. It may be another hundred, two hundred, a thousand years, but that is the blink of an eye in geological terms.

So, I am doing what I can, recycling, green agenda, got rid of the car, but guess what? it's not so bad and I'm enjoying life!

Bye for now, and I hope to read more fascinating comments in all the forums.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by foghornleghorn2 »

Global warming, climate change etc is a routine occurrence in the history of the world. The Government have without a doubt used it to their advantage when dreaming up new ways to part us from our cash.

I am sick of hearing the term carbon footprint {mr.angry}

We should care for our planet much better than we are now, things such as the loss of the Amazon rainforest should be stopped now. You can't just regrow that like a crop of spuds. The decimation of our wildlife in the name of progress should be stopped, Rhinos and the like should be better protected.

We can do what we can in the UK but the rest of the world needs to join in as well.

In India a cheapy car is being launched, it is half the price of the current cheapest new car. (£1300) In Delhi there are 5,000,000 or so cars on the road every day with an additional 1,000 vehicles being added every day. Imagine the impact on traffic and pollution when this new car opens up the possibility of motoring to a whole new spectrum of people.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/drivin ... 164205.ece

Just imagine if somebody invented a car that would run on water, think of the economic chaos that would ensue.
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by Steve the Gas »

It seems Global warming has hit the grand ole USA, and its heading towards Lynne P yike*


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/1002 ... torm_panic
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by BodhisatvaJohn »

foghornleghorn2 Global warming, climate change etc is a routine occurrence in the history of the world. The Government have without a doubt used it to their advantage when dreaming up new ways to part us from our cash.

You really do need to get to grips with climate change Foghorn, and understand that the deniers have personal reasons for trying to discredit man made global warming theory(AGW). If you take the nonsense written in the Daily Mail as fact, then you are sunk!
Try some of these links to correct the balance! Despite all of the efforts of the deniers, AGW has not been shown to be a false assessment.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... s-sceptics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.skepticalscience.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Which camp are you in?

Post by manda »

Yes the history of the world has included climate change but with the industries that have been established in the century we (as in humans) are surely hurrying it along.
I was so saddened by Copenhagen - everyone appeared to be too busy trying to set their own agenda without getting the point that if we don't all benefit from the decisions that are made then none of us will.


We can do what we can in the UK but the rest of the world needs to join in as well

Absolutely but the bottom line is that someone has to be a hero in this situation and set aside status or gain as the agenda. Otherwise if everyone sits there saying well we're not doing it all others have got to join in too then nothing will get done by anybody.
Then we go back again though it's not just about saying things need to be done at a governmental level..people ..individuals can make a difference if enough of them do something. Yes there will be governments who will dig their heels in and want to make the stand for their gain or whatever their agenda is but the individuals living in their countries can still do their part. We are not passengers in our lives we are meant to have some control over our destinies - yep OK some of my friends don't get the life I have chosen to live...that's not a problem. I could still do so many more things to reduce the impact of my being on this planet (notice I didn't mention carbon footprint :-D ) but I would like to think that when I do step off this mortal coil that I leave with a reasonably clear conscience.
I'm not going to sit around and wait for those elected to make a decision...lets face it they have demonstrated quite clearly in Copenhagen that they are not interested in reducing the effect we humans are having on our planet that are interested in being right (whatever their right is) or towing whatever party line it is they are affilitated to...sad eh?
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Living our version of the Good Life with 4 dogs, 6 cats, a cow, a few sheep, Angora Goats and ???? chooks.
Don't get your knickers in a knot..it solves nothing ~ just makes you walk funny
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