Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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fabindia
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Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

Post by fabindia »

The first from the BBC is about how good ventilation could be a weapon against Corona virus. This sort of thing could explain why places like Thailand has had, in comparison to UK, very little Corona - everyone here spends a lot of time outside and if inside has doors and windows wide open due to the heat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55435914

The second deals with the need, or not as the case may be, to disinfect surfaces. I think sometimes we do things because we have a gut feeling they are the right thing to do, rather than on any evidence based science. I must admit that even before Covid I was pretty obsessed with Norovirus and toilet door handles. It seems however that it is unlikely that Corona is spread by surface contact.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... 9207288938
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

Post by Gwenoakes »

I think that we disinfect/wipe things too much tbh, I feel we need to build up our own individual resistance to bugs etc. There is an old saying you have to eat a peck of muck before you die.
Having said the above I am totally obsessed with wiping everything down because of this dratted Covid thing.
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Mo
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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I almost feel as though I've read too much on the subject (even our Christmas family zoom ended up talking about it) but I read a while back that our emphasis on hand washing hadn't worked as well as countries where they routinely wear masks and did that as first response, and scientists now think the spread is more from droplets, though other viruses do spread on surfaces.
My mother used to say that too Gwen. And there was a slogan 'Coughs and sneezes spread diseases'
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Meanqueen
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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Depends where you read, Mo. I can sit up late and be intrigued by what I am finding out. All the little pieces of information are beginning to make sense to me. It's easy to feel overwhelmed and want to give up. I have difficulty understanding some of the medical aspects of viruses, but bit by bit, it's starting to come together.

I have been called a conspiracy theorist, part of the tin hat brigade, and told to go back down my rabbit hole. People with alternative views, alternative to the mainstream media that is, are branded crazy.

It was thought that it could be caught from surfaces in the beginning, that's the way the narrative was presented. It got everyone wiping their shopping down before they put it into the cupboard. I did myself once. Why do you think everyone was urged stop using cash? They were told they could catch it from coins and bank notes. Not so. It was to get everyone to buy remotely online, use their cards and phones in shops, so their every movement could be tracked. It is big business to collect data and sell it on. I use cash for almost everything. Washing your hands at every opportunity is a good idea.

Fresh air is always a good idea rather than spending time in enclosed heated buildings. I am so thankful that I chose a career that had me outdoors in all weathers, and working alone for most of the time. I caught the odd cold now and again, a bit of coughing and a runny nose, but nothing worse. A healthy immune system took care of a lot of ills that I might have been in contact with.

I had better stop there. If you want to read a simple common sense script, try this. A doctor in conversation on a radio programme. Delete if not appropriate.
https://prn.fm/honest-perspective-covid-19-pandemic/

No matter what anyone else says about it, go by your own common sense and do the best for yourself. Wear a mask if you think that's right, wash your groceries if it makes you feel better, but don't stress about it. Stress can be a bigger killer than Covid. I wish you well.
)wav( >gl<

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lancashire lass
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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fabindia wrote: 29 Dec 2020, 03:22 The second deals with the need, or not as the case may be, to disinfect surfaces. I think sometimes we do things because we have a gut feeling they are the right thing to do, rather than on any evidence based science. I must admit that even before Covid I was pretty obsessed with Norovirus and toilet door handles. It seems however that it is unlikely that Corona is spread by surface contact.
I think it depends on the location - within your own home then the risk is low. If you live on your own, even lower as no-one else is bringing the virus into the house. Within a public building, the risk is increased. Droplets without a mask eventually land on surfaces, people cough into their hands and then touch common things like door handles, lift buttons and stair handles which can be transferred to items you use like mobile phones. The virus can remain viable on surfaces for days and is still a route that can be picked up and transferred to your face and mouth which is why cleaning everything became an issue - people frequently touch their face without realising it.

Now, someone speaking to you close up (that is, not socially distanced and without a mask) will spray droplets directly at face level. Here the load (that is, each droplet containing viruses) is much greater and easily breathed in directly. Within a closed environment like a room without ventilation, microscopic droplets can remain airborne- the longer someone stays in that room, the greater the risk of other occupants breathing the droplets in.

The reason why masks are the preferred method to preventing spread is that (i) it captures the droplets breathed out so reduces spread and (ii) with a mask in place, you are less likely to transfer a surface contracted virus directly to your face (such as rubbing your nose or wiping your lips) Thirdly, droplets that land on surfaces will dry quickly so risk of contaminating your hands are reduced - some viruses will be trapped by the dried (microscopic) mucus stuck on the surface, and some viruses will die off so reduce the load of viable viruses that you are likely to pick up. However, it is still a possible source of infection and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

I will still disinfect trolley handles on shopping carts and use a hand sanitiser before shopping (to reduce risk to others as well as anything I might have picked up when I collected the trolley that had not long been used by someone else) and immediately after shopping (to reduce risk of transferring anything to my property such as the car steering wheel and gear stick) About 3 years ago I took my annual leave and spent 3 weeks busy on one of my building projects at home. The Saturday before I went back to work, I did a supermarket shop (I like to do my shopping early to avoid crowds) - by Tuesday I was ill with a dreadful cold and had to take the rest of the week off work. The only way I could have picked up a cold was most likely after handling that shopping trolley - a lesson I haven't forgotten. I don't wipe my shopping when I get home - most items on display in shops are not handled frequently (you see something and pick it up and put it in your trolley, unless of course you decide to read the nutritional information first and put it back), secondly - most things go into store until needed by which time any surface contaminant will be less viable, and thirdly, I wash my hands before I prepare food and before eating it.
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manda
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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I think Corona viruses will sit on hard surfaces and they can last longer that way (as opposed to landing on cardboard/material which probably either absorbs or breaks the outer membrane of the cell.

I know in Auckland they had a case which they could only put down to a lift button. Someone who tested positive had been in a few minutes before and the person who followed after became infected - surface contamination is possible, but it has only been recorded a few times internationally.

There had also been a case overseas where a person took the lift to their apartment, became ill with Covid-19 and didn't leave their apartment for two weeks. The illness spread to other residents in the same apartment complex and it was thought the source was the lift button.....So it has been documented but it seems to be quite a rare thing.

Like any corona virus it transmits most efficiently by airborne droplets which is why people are being encouraged to wear masks and wash their hands before touching their face - because we know we touch our faces more than we think - simple hand hygiene who'd have thought (I'm being sarcastic there because hand hygiene has been the death of many a bug).

I Wonder sometimes why people are so suspicious of this bug it's not like they're new they've been around for centuries. The Spanish Flu killed 50 million people globally -why people would think this isn't capable of doing the same astounds me.
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

Post by Freeranger »

There was also the case in Singapore (I think) when a couple who had it sat in one pew, then the folk in the next service who sat in the same place caught it and spread it.
A friend is a H&S officer but a very sensible one, and she also talks about the evidence for different types of surface affecting the transmission as Manda describes.
I think I'll play safe and continue to quarantine things as they come into the house. It can't hurt and it may help.
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

Post by fabindia »

Some really great and interesting comments. I think just goes to show even the experts don't have the total picture so what hope do we have?
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manda
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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When you think how many people the flu kills each year (WHO reckon 250-650,000) and as Coronaviruses do that has mutated ...COVID is going to behave in exactly the same way (as it has already started doing).

What I don't understand if I'm being completely honest is why there are so many conspiracy theories attached to this or people shouting it's only a flu like all the other flus.

Corona viruses have been around for centuries just doing their thing. The Spanish Flu killed 50 million. The Corona virus probably hasn't killed so many because of technology (viral and medical tech) and through communications (the fact that you can message someone on the other side of the globe and it's instantaneous) but it's still been the cause of more deaths for example in the USA than the flu has been responsible for in the last 5.

They don't know so much about this one because it's so new but they know how
Corona viruses work on the whole ...this one is just being a lot nastier.
The sad thing for me is people not listening to the science (which is well known with flu viruses anyway)...the simplest wash your hands and if need be isolate. That's not rocket science although apparently it seems it is.

I find the whole study of bugs fascinating (and terrifying at the same time)...we were very lucky to have a lecture from an epidemiologist who had worked in Australia and who had been able to take an ICU apart when they kept getting repeat MRSA outbreaks (they decommissioned it and built new one) - they were able to study the bugs in all places in the unit - these things are clever at ensuring their survival and mutate so their biofilms are resistant to all our jiggery pokery - like I say fascinating but terrifying.

I don't know if anyone else feels this but sometimes I just think it's mother nature doing what she does....to many of something along comes a drought, famine or forest fires, earthquakes, floods ...Corona virus . We are after all just another species living on this crazy planet we call home and we are a bit too prolific for a whole manner of reasons...just a thought, a rather macabre one I grant you but a thought.
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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manda wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 03:00 I don't know if anyone else feels this but sometimes I just think it's mother nature doing what she does....to many of something along comes a drought, famine or forest fires, earthquakes, floods ...Corona virus . We are after all just another species living on this crazy planet we call home and we are a bit too prolific for a whole manner of reasons...just a thought, a rather macabre one I grant you but a thought.
Well that had occurred to me.
And it does link you to nature and history in a way that we maybe thought our cleverness insulated us from.
Last year I was walking with my daughter and her partner wanted to go and find something listed on Historic England. There are 2 entries for this stone. as a wayside cross marking the way to Vale Royal Abbey, and as a Plague Stone. I'd heard all about the plague in Eyam, Derbyshire but not thought much about plague in Cheshire. And with the centenary of WW1 we heard all about Spanish Flu. Ah well, it couldn't happen nowadays. Should have known better.
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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I am glad someone else, i.e. Manda and Mo have thought along Mother Nature lines as I have too.
As I have told many a person over the years in roofing there is one thing I cannot control and that is the weather, i.e. Mother Nature.
The world is over populated and I do believe that is why these plagues of whatever happen and if that is correct there is absolutely imho nothing us mortals can do to stop it. We work on one thing and another pops up, just a continuous circle.
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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Gwenoakes wrote: 31 Dec 2020, 11:11 The world is over populated and I do believe that is why these plagues of whatever happen and if that is correct there is absolutely imho nothing us mortals can do to stop it. We work on one thing and another pops up, just a continuous circle.
I think you are right. The planet can't sustain an increase in population year on year. There has to be a point of saturation. A lot of food is produced but it isn't being distributed evenly throughout. The only way that can happen is more cargo flights, which is going to up the pollution. We could all just eat only what we produce ourselves I suppose.

Things have moved on since the Eyam plague, which reportedly came over in a bale of cloth from elsewhere in the world. Now it's people who transmit it because of the ease in which we can travel anywhere. But it has to start somewhere, and I am not entirely dismissive of the idea that it was man made, and planned.

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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

Post by Spreckly »

Such an interesting thread. I am still disinfecting wheelie bins after collection, toilet handles, etc. Never used as much bleach!
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

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I came across this paper published in the Virology Journal published October 2020 (you may or may not get access to the paper - as a university employee, I have access to most scientific journals through my place of work. In case you can't, I'll quote some of the material) The paper is titled: "The effect of temperature on persistence of SARS-CoV-2 on common surfaces"
The transmission of SARS-CoV-2 appears to be primarily via aerosols and recent studies have shown that SARS-CoV-2 is able to remain infectious in airborne particles for greater than 3 h. The role of fomites in the current pandemic is yet to be fully determined, although they have been suggested as a potential mode of transmission also reflected by the strong focus on hand-washing by WHO and national control schemes. Broadly, viruses have been shown to be readily transferred between contaminated skin and a fomite surface, with high contact surfaces such as touchscreens on mobile phones, bank ATMs, airport check-in kiosks and supermarket self-serve kiosks all acting as fomites for the transmission of viruses. Fomite transmission has previously been shown to be a highly efficient procedure, with transmission efficiencies of 33% for both fomite to hand and fingertip to mouth transfer for bacteria and phages. With the high efficiency of fomite transfer, the persistence of SARS-CoV-2 on environmental surfaces is therefore a critical factor when considering the potential for fomite transmission for this virus.
This study measured the survival rates of infectious SARS-CoV-2, suspended in a standard ASTM E2197 matrix, on several common surface types. All experiments were carried out in the dark, to negate any effects of UV light. Inoculated surfaces were incubated at 20 °C, 30 °C and 40 °C and sampled at various time points.
Survival rates of SARS-CoV-2 were determined at different temperatures and D-values, Z-values and half-life were calculated. We obtained half lives of between 1.7 and 2.7 days at 20 °C, reducing to a few hours when temperature was elevated to 40 °C. With initial viral loads broadly equivalent to the highest titres excreted by infectious patients, viable virus was isolated for up to 28 days at 20 °C from common surfaces such as glass, stainless steel and both paper and polymer banknotes. Conversely, infectious virus survived less than 24 h at 40 °C on some surfaces.
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Re: Covid again - a couple of interesting articles

Post by manda »

Meanqueen wrote: ..... But it has to start somewhere, and I am not entirely dismissive of the idea that it was man made, and planned. ...
ilona
https://bgr.com/2020/03/19/coronavirus- ... -man-made/

Which in summary says teams of researchers have analyzed the genome of the virus, proving that it could not have been engineered in a lab - it's ability to attach itself to ACE-2 receptors (that regulate blood pressure) was so efficient that it could only have been by natural selection, not genetic engineering. If it had been lab created there would have been information in the genome relating to another virus and there wasn't.

That being said it’s still possible that the virus escaped from a lab (either by accident or on purpose).
There are plenty of viruses not found in humans that are being studied - if they get out some will already be at a stage whereby they could infect humans because they have developed inside an animal for example. Others by their very nature and ability to mutate will eventually be able to adapt to infect humans (only stands to reason).

All those who are shouting about conspiracies and controls (look at the US for the most vocal according to their constitution) as I've said before - it doesn't matter where it came from that fact is it is out there now and it kills. Whilst it's mortality rate may be less that SARS because it is so much more infectious it has and will kill more just because of the sheer numbers it is able to infect.
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