When is ??????

Thrifty tips, ideas, news & experiences on anything around the home to shopping to re-cycling etc.
Post Reply
bikesandbirdsbob
Legendary Laner
Posts: 3792
Joined: 11 Jun 2014, 14:34
Gender: Male

When is ??????

Post by bikesandbirdsbob »

A serious question which I have my own views .
When is it a matter of choice and when is it a case of no choice.
Some people have frugal life styles because they have not the opportunity / ablitity to better themselves , which I say now is not a put down , as I believe truly that if I was a toilet cleaner , I would say my toilets are the cleanest in the world .
OR
A choice of life style that you have taken . I .E. could earn money , be a wealth person.
I believe in being one thing but know I am a fool who is easily parted from his money .
good job I have a good SHMBO to slow me up.
I think Frugal Feb should also include a thought for those that that have little choice and maybe I will put the money I have not spent to a good cause .
(Can I send them a bill for my over spending also ) Joking aside view s welcome good or bad .
It will widen my views of life which I am seriously attempting to do this year.
Bob
User avatar
Meanqueen
Legendary Laner
Posts: 7617
Joined: 19 Jan 2008, 19:49

Re: When is ??????

Post by Meanqueen »

Hi Bob. I am not quite understanding your drift. Are you saying it's alright for those who have a choice, but there are those who haven't a choice? Why do you think some people have little or no choice? I get this question all the time, because I often tell people they have choices, but then they say it's alright for me because I am single and can do what I like. They say they have no choice because they have family to consider.

I realized from an early age that I have choices in life, so I made decisions based on my own ideas. I accept complete responsibility for my choices, eg, I chose not to get married and have children. Ultimately I will have no family to help me in older age, I accept that, my choice, therefore I cannot complain that I am lonely, because I choose to live alone.

My ambition when I left school was to work and earn my own money. Everyone has that choice. I wanted to pay my way, not take handouts from the government, not get married and have to ask a husband for money. Consequently I had to work for 45 years, some of it was very hard physically and mentally. I couldn't complain, it was my choice.

I can think of a few scenarios which might inhibit peoples choices, things can happen which is out of their control. But saying that, when the turmoil has subsided there is always a choice of how you deal with it and face the future.

Choices are all about how you exercise control of your situations. Three times I have had a controlling partner. I knew it was happening so I didn't let it go on for too long, I had the choice of getting out, so I did. My mother was in an unhappy marriage, she hung on too long for the sake of her kids, she should have got out long before she did.

Not everybody wants to better themselves in their work life, some are happy to stay in the same job that they feel comfortable with. There are opportunities out there if people want to look, I chose to change jobs many times.

Fascinating subject. I have had to be frugal all of my life, now I have learnt a few tricks it's easy and I can ease off a bit. I still choose to be penny pinching, it's no hardship to me, in fact I enjoy the challenge. Sounds like you have chosen the right SWMBO.

Ilona
User avatar
lancashire lass
Legendary Laner
Posts: 6527
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 15:17

Re: When is ??????

Post by lancashire lass »

I think I understand - an extreme version is if you have no income coming in, where do you save money? You can't save money on something you don't have. So someone on a low income would be tied to spending on essentials (a roof over your head, bills for heating and cooking, food) Someone on medium earnings might be able to spend on "luxury" items like furniture or a holiday, maybe a tv, computer or a mobile phone whether from savings or on a credit card to pay off later in the year regardless of whether this is the right way to go about it or not. Those with a generous income have no reason to be inhibited by their spending.

Basically, not everyone are financially the same - some are already restricted and already being frugal (doing without or shopping sensibly to make ends meet), some are so desperate that they have no choice but to borrow money (such as using a credit card or take out a loan) while others can have the choice to be frugal or not.

Some outgoings might be outside your control - such as council tax. Some outgoings might be subject to contract - if you try to bail out/switch, there might be a financial penalty. Some people might not be able to benefit from better deals because of their poor credit rating.

And times are changing - the benefit system which cushioned a lot of people is not the same. And employment opportunities are very different today - a young generation are encouraged to go to university to improve their employability. Sadly, many do not get the jobs that would normally be taken up by graduates because there are more of them than there are of jobs available - so a lot of graduates take on work normally taken on by non-graduates .... resulting in a downshift in roles. For example - my job in the 1970s only needed 4 O levels but by the 1980s, a minimum of 2 A levels and now a degree. Post docs (someone with a doctorate, that is, a Dr) are even applying for my type of job and they are being taken on by employers who can pay them a lower wage. Where does it leave those like myself who, for whatever reason, could not/did not want to go down the route of higher education ... there's not much choice there to switch jobs, even worse when you reach 50 and competing against a much younger generation who can be paid less? So a lot of people like myself really do not have that many choices of just leaving one job to find another - even writing out a CV is so complex these days, never mind some of the interviews I've attended where it's not so much about the facts of education and skills acquired but having to blag your way about why that job is the best thing since sliced bread, and that does not come naturally to me.

However, when it comes down to how or what you spend your money on whether you are on low paid or comfortable, I accept that it is possible to make small changes that can save you some money. If there is a cheaper electricity tariff or you do not need to have the heating on high all the time, or special offer on purchases, not wasting food or making it stretch further ... all those are achievable.

EDIT: with reference to the post docs taken on in my type of work - I know there are 2 of them in my team of just 5 people. Reasons they gave is that post doc employment are contractual and they cannot get long term loans or mortgages, whereas my job is permanent.
User avatar
Mo
Legendary Laner
Posts: 15368
Joined: 30 Apr 2007, 09:39
Location: Cheshire (nr Chester)

Re: When is ??????

Post by Mo »

Interesting point about saving some money by being extra frugal in Feb and giving it to those in need.
I went to a concert iao a food bank last week. Actually I wasn't giving to the food bank - I got a good concert for my money - though I did buy some raffle tickets too. And part of me says this is all wrong. We are doing the states work for them.
It is all wrong that people can be working all hours and still not covering basic expenses. Not much chance of bettering yourself, you haven't got the experience to get a better job. But why should the unpleasant jobs be paid so much less anyway.
Dance caller. http://mo-dance-caller.blogspot.co.uk/p/what-i-do.html
Sunny Clucker enjoyed Folk music and song in mid-Cheshire
User avatar
Mo
Legendary Laner
Posts: 15368
Joined: 30 Apr 2007, 09:39
Location: Cheshire (nr Chester)

Re: When is ??????

Post by Mo »

Mind you - you could get into a right twist there.
Everyone should be paid average
People who train / do their job well should get extra
Either there is more demand so prices go up or some people have more and everyone thinks they have a right to it (holidays, consumer goods).
Anyway average wages have risen so...
back to stage 1

But wrong that some people can't earn enough for basics.
Dance caller. http://mo-dance-caller.blogspot.co.uk/p/what-i-do.html
Sunny Clucker enjoyed Folk music and song in mid-Cheshire
User avatar
Meanqueen
Legendary Laner
Posts: 7617
Joined: 19 Jan 2008, 19:49

Re: When is ??????

Post by Meanqueen »

I read an article the other day, a group of British teenagers worked on a farm but didn't last very long. I think it was an experiment. They had to sit behind a tractor harvesting cauli's I think, chopping them off at the stalks and putting them in boxes. They complained that they were cold, they didn't like the job at all. It was said the foreign workers work much more quickly without complaint.

Our teenagers see all the celeb and glamour stuff in the media and that's what they want, yet there is a shortage of plumbers and bricklayers. Their choice if they want to sign on and wait for the modelling jobs to appear. The foreigners made their choice to come here and work to earn their living. The internet has opened up a whole new world.

LL, you say that people are so desperate they have no choice but to borrow money. I disagree with that. They can choose to do manual jobs, choose to be cleaners and carers and labouring jobs, which would bring in some income. They can apply for benefits, and they can choose what they can spend their money on. The trouble is that they see what other people are buying and say, I want one of them, get a card and bingo, they are in debt.

I have to go out now
ilona
wildlifemad
Lively Laner
Posts: 435
Joined: 22 Mar 2017, 09:40

Re: When is ??????

Post by wildlifemad »

I think some people do struggle for money & sometimes through no fault of their own i.e. redundancy but it is then up to that person to 'cut their cloth accordingly'. When my husband & I were first together, he was made redundant from a job earning £30k+ & a company Mercedes (this was back in 2000 so a great salary) but he had 2 children to support from his first marriage so went out & got a job at a plant nursery earning £9k + overtime, he is still there now & has worked his way up.
I think a lot of people these days don't know (or don't want to know) the difference between what is essential e.g. paying your bills & what is a luxury e.g. Sky tv. You have to make your choices in life & I'm afraid I don't have a lot of sympathy with people who complain they are in debt but keep spending what they haven't got.
Nice lively debate you've started here Bob!!
User avatar
lancashire lass
Legendary Laner
Posts: 6527
Joined: 28 Jun 2007, 15:17

Re: When is ??????

Post by lancashire lass »

I think you are missing the point or are just not aware of how much the workplace or employment has changed in recent years (as recent as the past 5 years):

Mo wrote:People who train / do their job well should get extra


not in the real world they don't - if that was the case, I'd be earning twice my current salary but in some systems you have to apply for jobs of a higher grade when they become available to earn more, and they are what might say, dead mans shoes ... there are no other grades, or worse, when that person leaves or retires, the post quietly disappears presumably to save money. The clause in the employment contracts states "... and any other tasks ..." which means you can be asked to do work that is not specific to your job description as and when needed by your employers. And yet, your contract also specifies your job to the letter (what % work you do in that task, % in the other and so on) which can be used against you when the employer is looking to make people redundant - I should know, it happened to me. My "job" didn't disappear when I was made redundant, it was shared out as though it never existed.

As for the days of standing up to employers - well, keeping the job you have is better than none at all. Unions have absolutely no power in the workplace these days, and you'd be surprised how some employers can get round the law to proceed with redundancies. It has to be a clear cut win case before any employment lawyer will take it on.

Mo wrote:Anyway average wages have risen so...


really? where? Public funded salaries have been frozen or 1% cost of living rise for the past 10 years now ... certainly not matching the rising cost of fuel or food

Meanqueen wrote:LL, you say that people are so desperate they have no choice but to borrow money. I disagree with that. They can choose to do manual jobs, choose to be cleaners and carers and labouring jobs, which would bring in some income


A twist on what I actually meant but to clarify I believe I was referring to "some" people. If you are unemployed, you'll find it difficult to get a credit card or loan from a reputable bank (I'm not talking about the advertised credit card schemes with 2000% APR or such who take on anyone) Someone in employment but already on low wages (but not supplemented with benefits - you really have to be on peanuts before you are allowed that, and despite a lot of propaganda about them getting loads, that really is the exception than the rule) might need to urgently borrow money because they have no savings (again, I feel I have to give an instance such as simply not earning enough to put any aside) - when something happens like the boiler dies or the car needs repair (let's assume it is needed for work rather than argue there are other transportation) but the repairs have to be carried out. I'm not talking about lazy layabouts refusing to work.

Meanqueen wrote:They complained that they were cold, they didn't like the job at all. It was said the foreign workers work much more quickly without complaint.


Were these same youngsters really desperate for work or just there to do the equivalent of a reality tv show? Take someone from the 21st century and shove them into the early 20th century for an experiment and they'd be complaining about conditions back then too. As for foreign workers - back in their own country, wages are much lower than in the UK so why would they complain? And foreign workers presumably go back home when the season is over?

Meanqueen wrote:Our teenagers see all the celeb and glamour stuff in the media and that's what they want, yet there is a shortage of plumbers and bricklayers. Their choice if they want to sign on and wait for the modelling jobs to appear. The foreigners made their choice to come here and work to earn their living. The internet has opened up a whole new world.


this is not the case of all teenagers - I work with young people and they certainly don't think like that. They have their heads screwed on a lot better than older generations realise.

As for shortage of plumbers and bricklayers - of course there is if investment is not put in to train them. And these type of jobs are subject to the economy - when it is good and people want building work doing, their business is thriving but when there is a downtown and people are less likely to spend, then these workers are made redundant until things improve. Self employment comes with a cost too if someone is willing to try it and can work out how to correctly file their tax returns and other business paperwork (to follow building code regulations, legislations, health & safety, risk assessments and whatever else is involved) and then there is the same reasons of good and bad economy but when cash is low, they can't just pop down to the Jobcentre and sign on than someone who was made redundant.

I find it sad that older generations see the younger generation in such a poor light. Opportunities are so very different these days - gone are the manufacturing jobs which were the mainstay of many workers, and what about robotics and the increased use of artificial intelligence? Our young people have more uncertainty in the work place than ever before.
User avatar
Richard
Lord Lane of Down...... Site Owner
Posts: 30037
Joined: 26 Apr 2007, 22:48
Gender: Male
Location: Ashford, Kent, UK

Re: When is ??????

Post by Richard »

A good discussion.

I think and hope I have always mentioned 'the frugal fashion', is it a hobby, is it just being clever and so on.

Indeed there are many who don't need to be frugal and tohers where frugal is not an understood word because they live on a shoestring.
Something I raise a lot in the Frugal Living Pages.

In the 1950's and 1960's pages on web site I write that my Grandparents wouldn't know what frugal means, they lived as they did with no credit spending, only money they had in the bank or under the bed.

In that sense, Frugal February which has been going on for about 7 / 8 years now, is a chance for everyone to have their say.

It was started after I read somewhere that I think it's 14th. February is supposed to be the hardest financial day of the year for many - credit card and loan payments after Christmas and so on.

The main thing is it encourages comment, ways to look at our spending and get some tips off each other.

Someone close to me is just downsizing to a £1.2m house, they are completely loaded and buy what they want, go where they want and buy what they want.
Good for them !!

Equally I know someone who lives in a million plus house, got loads of dosh and are as tight as tight comes !

Richard
New Member? Get more from the Forum and join in 'Members Chat' - you're very welcome
User avatar
Mo
Legendary Laner
Posts: 15368
Joined: 30 Apr 2007, 09:39
Location: Cheshire (nr Chester)

Re: When is ??????

Post by Mo »

lancashire lass wrote:I think you are missing the point or are just not aware of how much the workplace or employment has changed in recent years (as recent as the past 5 years):

Mo wrote:People who train / do their job well should get extra


not in the real world they don't - ....

Mo wrote:Anyway average wages have risen so...


really? where? Public funded salaries have been frozen or 1% cost of living rise for the past 10 years now ... certainly not matching the rising cost of fuel or food


Sorry, what I was musing (obviously not clear) on was that I think EVERYONE should get a living wage - but on the other hand, people who train rightly think they deserve more - but on the other other hand if you give them extra it means prices can rise because of increased demand, so the people doing the unpleasant jobs are at the bottom of the pile again.
Meanqueen wrote:They can choose to do manual jobs, choose to be cleaners and carers and labouring jobs, which would bring in some income. They can apply for benefits, and they can choose what they can spend their money on.
. Yes, people with that kind of job needs benefits to top up - that's not right.
Dance caller. http://mo-dance-caller.blogspot.co.uk/p/what-i-do.html
Sunny Clucker enjoyed Folk music and song in mid-Cheshire
bikesandbirdsbob
Legendary Laner
Posts: 3792
Joined: 11 Jun 2014, 14:34
Gender: Male

Re: When is ??????

Post by bikesandbirdsbob »

Hi , I am afraid that I do not agree with benefits to those working full time jobs . The workers should get paid a living wage and not supported by government. If the company cannot make a profit it should not be in business.
Government support should be fore those that are on bad times , sick and needing assistance.
People that moan about hard work should not get a choice unless starve or work .
National service would not be a harmful . We could use the force for good what ever that was deemed needed.
One needs inflation , because if you think something is going to be cheaper tomorrow you will not buy today , this then means stocks go down and the need for the production stops lay offs and then stagnation which causes more grief than Inflation.
Hence the Bank of England has to send letters out if inflation goes above 2 per cent or does not reach 2 per cent a year .
due to promotion of degrees and devaluing them and not putting effort into apprentships we have the situation of so called clever people sweeping roads dor good money .
I worked on a production line with a Doctor . He was happier doing labouring job than life saving pressures . So I can understand the choices we can make.
Children , I some times wish I never had them as a long time pain in the arse.....
I would not like to live in this 21st century as it is a nightmare .
I had more choices in life , schools , work , play even now travel to far places. Not sure the generation to come will say the same.
Interesting times ahead , Cliff edges and a good bounce I recon . I am used to bouncing hard .
Hope no one got upset on this topic , it is only words and maybe a strong note to MPs would be better .
Bob
Post Reply