Back home to more Bumble problems

[chookmike]

During our holiday our house sitters reported that they had isolated poor old Bumble as she was limping badly and being viciously attacked. We are grateful for their common sense and care. We were expecting a bad change in the state of her bumble, but it was unchanged, as it has been for many weeks now and that foot works well. The problem is her non-bumble leg/foot which is so lame as to be almost useless. She can walk but only by putting minimal weight on it and she often stands on it with her bumble foot so that when she takes the next step she falls over - it is pitiful. The foot looks lifeless until she does spread her toes for a moment to limp the next step. No obvious injury, all other signs normal and healthy. She is laying huge eggs, all close to 100g. We have split the coop and runs and she is with her best friend 24/7 for the foreseeable as the other 3 want to kill her - extreme violence on sight.

Any suggestions all? The only thing I can think of is the egg weight pressing on the leg nerve, but there is nothing I can do for that, surely?

Hope everyone is well!

Cheers

Mike

[KarenE]

Hi Mike

We haven't met but I have followed Bumble's story with interest - you've done an amazing job with her, the amount of care you've given has been outstanding. Poor Bumble has certainly been through the wars.

About her leg - does it seem sore to the touch at all, either the leg or foot? I'm not hugely experienced with leg injuries but one of my ex batts fell from a height (long story) and seemed to injure her leg enough that she was limping for a good week or so after (not as badly as Bumble sounds). I wonder whether she's sprained or knocked it pretty badly, if you can see no obvious injury?

if she's moving her toes, that's a good sign I would think, at least indicates there's nothing broken anyway unless the injury is further up her leg?

It sounds like a muscle problem or a sprain to me, but I'm no expert. Isolating her and giving her time to recover is the best thing to do for her right now. I'd be tempted to say put something on it for bruising but I'm not sure what would be safe for chickens.

if you think it could be eggs pressing on the nerve - I would've thought that would affect both legs but in case not, see if you can suppress her egg laying. I think a change of diet does that ie take her off layers pellets?

Some more knowledgeable chicken keepers will give you proper advice!

[chookmike]

Thanks for that Karen, kind of you to reply. I agree with your logic about nerve effect applying to both legs, not the one. She is so used to being handled that I have been able to touch and look at her entire leg and manipulate each joint with no reaction from her, but there again she might just be being brave and concealing the pain to avoid more bullying.

I agree that some peace and quiet is the best we can do so I'll make a second pop hole tomorrow and she and her friend can rub along together for as long as it takes - the others are just through the wire so they'll be fine.

She has had two bullys since the bumble but now head hen has joined in and I am sure they would have killed her today - has rather put me off hens to be honest but I am sure the peace and quiet will help me too.

Thanks again

Mike

[LisaB]

Sorry to hear you're having more problems Mike :(

I know how awful the bullying can be - sometimes it's the bullies who need to be separated off for a few days to knock them down a few pegs.

For her leg, if there's no obvious wounds, I remember reading about a woman who rescued really poorly battery hens, the ones where their legs were so weak and sore they couldn't stand up at all. If I remember right she used to do "physio" with them, sometimes sitting them in warm water to sooth the joints, and she also used to gently move the leg every hour or so to help build up some muscle. Not sure if this is any help, but just thought it might be something to try that may help with any trapped nerves or lameness.

Hope she's feeling better soon x

[jackian]

Poor Bumble !.. I am sat here at my computer in pain .The reason being I had a strained muscle in the bottom of my back which has taken a while to mend , but because all the effort was put on recovering from that and avoiding pressure on that side I have pain in the other leg . I was wondering if because of walking badly bumble has the same result which should recover with care...Don't take my word for it I am no chicken

[chookmike]

Thanks also to LisaB and Jackian - both logical and reasoned suggestions. We have split the 5 into a two and a three and will simply leave it like that for as long as required.

We will bathe Bumble, but it may be that peace and quiet will do just as much - it can't have helped her sore leg when she had to run away from the bullying... She is a tiny wee bit better this evening

We are lucky in that we have 3 runs so we can shift them around and maintain separation, although I have to say that we seem now to have 5 unhappy hens...

Re-introduction, if it ever happens, will be a stressful time and we have postponed our intended 3 new ones until next year.

Thanks all

Mike

[Freeranger]

Nothing helpful to add, I'm afraid, except moral support Poor Bumble.

[Freeranger]

How's she doing,Mike?

[chicks&cats]

Sorry Mike, just caught up with your thread. Poor Bumble deserves a bit of peace and quiet I am sure after all she has been through with one thing and then another. Although I am sure Jackian is not a chicken I agree with her logic. Lots of us mere humans over-compensate when we have injuries and Bumble has had her issues for quite some time now. It may have been a build up of putting more pressure on her other leg or simply that once she stood awkwardly on it and her other leg couldn't step in to support? Anyway, I hope the respite with her friend lets her rest and lets you guys get back to enjoying them again

[chookmike]

Thanks for your concern and comments - you are such a nice bunch of people x

We have been experimenting......

Firstly, Bumble is getting plenty of opportunity to just rest if she wishes. She lives with best friend and they just sun bathe if that's all they want to do.

The other 3 are jealous because they are in a smaller run but what they don't know is that they are fox-proof whereas the two are only fox resistant.

At Lisa B's suggestion we made it a 4:1 split today as I was at home. Head Bully was isolated and the result was a surprise - she calmed down, stopped marching up and down the divider and just went about her chicken business in peace, seemingly enjoying a lack of competition herself - interesting. Thanks Lisa. She did fly at the wire at one point because Bumble was close on the other side and as Bumble fled and cowered this stimulated attack mode from two of the three - the pecking order is obviously more complicated than they show and is a 24/7 balance of power.

Rebecca also noticed something new; Head Bully has a lower beak longer than the upper one and finds it hard to feed. She has always been first in for hand fed treats but having her dinner alone this evening she tends to throw her food around rather than nailing it first time - perhaps this makes her aggressive toward anyone she feels is weaker but able to eat quickly enough to get their share of a feed.

Her limp is getting better bit by bit and as she now seems to think she is either a cat or a human I am almost tempted to just let her live in the garden. I say almost. She doesn't wreck the garden as she can't scratch to any extent and she sits with the cats or goes bug-hunting in the shrubs and disappears for hours - we have a rather overgrown little garden which is how we like it.

We don't know how this will all end but she seems happy enough getting tired and then just sitting and snoozing in the lovely weather here.

One funny scene yesterday: Pip the kitten, coming on cat, loves just watching them and getting close. No crouching or pounce wagging, just looking. Anyway, he was following Bumble when best friend took exception and grabbed his tail - and held on! Tug of war for about 3 seconds until each walked away to preserve their dignity pretending nothing had happened.....

Thanks for your interest

Cheers

Mike

[Skeksis]

Separating a bully is always a good thing however it's not good enough to separate her in sight of the other hens.

When I do it, she lives in my house in a dog crate for two days and is completely out of sight and sound. Hens communicate through body language and verbally so you would need to do this for it to be completely effective. When you put her back she will actually have moved down the pecking order considerably and you won't have any more trouble in my experience.

Arnica cream is perfectly safe to put on hens' legs and may help. It certainly brings bruising out more quickly and helps healing.

It's not necessarily a sign of no breaks etc, if a hen can move its toes. By default almost all birds have a tendon which means that when the foot is at rest it is closed in the 'grabbing' position. This is what enables birds to perch on a branch and sleep without falling off, they have to consciously 'open' their foot rather than like us have to consciously grip.

It is entirely possible that just one leg could be affected by an egg pressing on a nerve, the egg laying gubbins are not slap bang in the middle of a hen's system. However, I would say that is not the problem here.

I would tend to think that the leg is just weak, not perhaps having been banged or whatever but if she has relied on it heavily when she had a bumble foot she may have caused some strain or damage. Rest is probably the only answer and making sure there's nowhere she needs to jump down as they do land rather heavily, don't they?

Arnica cream can't hurt and I would use it personally, but perhaps not bathing etc as any strain could be made worse by moving or manipulating the leg too much. Especially if it is a nerve problem, rest is the only thing.

One thing I would say with Bumble, if I were you I would take her off growers completely. I would not feed any dried grain/corn as it's so hard and difficult to digest. I would put her on a lower protein diet, maybe growers' feed. Keep her on stuff that's easy to digest and let her have some garlic and a bit of honey mixed in to her feed every two or three days will also be beneficial. Take her protein level right down and feed oystershell grit if she wants it. I think a dietary change will make a HUGE difference to her health to be honest, Mike. I think you would be surprised at the change in her if you take her off layers.

The other thing I wanted to say about the hen with the longer lower beak. Don't be tempted to clip it with nail clippers as some may suggest to you. There is a very strong blood supply to birds' beaks which bleeds like fury if you clip or nick it. Is there a concrete paving slab that the birds have access to at all times in their run?? I keep one in my run solely for the purpose of my hens using it to file down their beaks. She will do this very quickly I would have thought, concrete is the only thing that seems to let them file it down well and properly. If there is access already then I would say it's not bothering her enough to worry about. If there isn't and you put a slab in, you will see her file it down I should think.

Another thing you may want to do is to get a bag of layers mash and feed that along side your pellets. One reason that the factory farms feed hens mash (one of the many) is that a lot of the hens are debeaked and even debeaked or hens with beak deformities find mash really easy to eat. I personally would always keep a feeder with mash in so that this avoids the problem altogether and you will probably find your top hen does prefer to eat this and her nature may change accordingly quite drastically.

Those are my thoughts anyway and what I would do in each case in your place.

Let me know how you get on or if you choose to take any of those up x

[Skeksis]

Oh, and Mike I forgot to say: I absolutely would still get the new hens ASAP.

IMHO you tend to get less pecking order and other problems in a larger flock as each individual hen gets far less hassle from the others and there is a larger range of 'friends' for them to pick and hang around with.

If I were you I would absolutely get those new hens ASAP - it is very likely to me that Bumble has so many pecking order problems simply because your flock is so small and she gets so much attention. Just go and see your hens before you get them and pick them carefully. You can often see their temperament when picking them if you're clever. Often if they are exbats (only what I have found and others may differ of course, but I've been right with mine) the ones that look most scraggy and bald tend to be lower in the PO. The ones that have almost all of their feathers and look best condition are VERY often bossy and highly placed PO hens with which you will have more trouble. Just my opinion.

Also, are there lots of different sized cardboard boxes in your run? I NEVER have any problems now simply because there are half a dozen cardboard and wooden boxes of different sizes. They LOVE them and with hens it's out of sight, out of mind, trust me. xx

[chookmike]

Thanks Skeksis - a lot of good information there and I think we'll try all suggestions you make. The bully has concrete, all will have boxes by tomorrow and Bumble will live in peace until she is able to walk well and not appear weak. We would never clip a beak.

Of course she will have to be completely isolated if on a different diet and I'm not sure I would want the isolation to last too long as she might lose the 'flock' instinct? Could you elaborate on why a lower protein diet may help?

You give the impression that Arnica cream is for humans - can I get it at any good pharmacy?

Thanks for your time in sending so much info - I hope many others read your post to add to their knowledge.

Much appreciated

Mike

[Skeksis]

You can buy a tube of Arnica cream at Bootz or Hollanx and parrot.

Taking her off layers will reduce the protein and also take pressure off her egg laying system. She will probably get a bit lighter and that will ease pressure on her foot and legs. High protein also affects her nature and how active she is - not quite like, but similar to, feeding a horse oats so you have an analogy.

You don't need to keep her separate or isolate her and nor would it be a good idea. Just take her off on her own first thing at bedtime and some time during the day to give her a massive scoff of food. Make a warm mash (feed it warm if you like as its appealing) of growers, give her some defrosted peas, tinned tomato, anything nutritious or low in protein. No mealworms etc. she will fill up on this and it won't matter about her having a little peck of the layers pellets.

And make sure to get your new hens x

No probs, happy to help btw - please let us know how these things work. I think you will find a multitude of boxes will make quite a difference to all your hens. xx

Mine have a tyre from kwik fit too which they sleep on as it gets warm in the sun. It was free

[Freeranger]

Fascinating stuff, Skeksis. I found this really helpful too.